Young people considering entering IT should be forewarned of the prospect of being transformed to the scrap heap at an age when professionals in other fields are reaching their peak. I suspect the main force behind a reduction in young people entering IT can be attributed to the rather simpler fact that they cannot find work however. This seems to be borne out by graduate statistics year on year. If they should find it tough to enter IT at a young age, let them be warned now of the difficulties they may face when in their late thirties and beyond. IT is interesting, but it is not a career.

I'm in my late 20's now and I've only worked in the IT sector for about 7 years now, maybe I'm a little naive still, but I'm shocked out how negative people are being about IT.

IT is interesting and it is a career.

In my few short years technologies etc have changed dramatically, however this hasn't made me obsolete. In fact I've embraced the changes and learnt many new skills. As I've become more experienced though and worked with different teams I have become aware that there are many IT workers out there who aren't willing to learn new skills, they believe they finished learning when the got their degrees, therefore they have become obsolete. IT workers need to embrace change not fight it, they need to read and learn more. The changes that occur are often for the better, making things more efficient and cost effective.

Maybe it's time IT workers put a little back and stopped being so negative. Learn more skills, don't just put yourself in a category and stick with it.

Evolve, everything / everyone else does.

Stephen: I don't think IT is alone in looking to younger and younger managers. In fact, I would suggest that it is an economy-wide phenomenon. It seems that more and more businesses are employing younger executives. Are such managers incredibly talented? Or are the businesses attempting to save costs? Look around you. Everyone seems to be a 'consultant' these days. The job for life is gone. Get to you late thirties and early forties and you're looking at the consultant position.

John: Your positivity is refreshing; maybe even different. The inherent change within the technology industry is what makes our industry interesting. But let's see if you're still so positive when the subtle push towards consultancy kicks in during your late thirties...

Mark: "The subtle push towards consultancy" - can I ask why I would have to move into consultancy? I'm a web developer and it that's the role I love, surely I don't have to move into consultancy? Isn't that a personal decision?

Ok, I may head up a large team of developers or something, but I don't intend to get out of the loop at any stage. I didn't get into web development to then get out of it again and fall behind. I believe that with the speed the industry changes I can't afford to do that, neither do I want to as it's too exciting.

Again I may be being naive here, but I'd be interested in your feedback Mark.

John: Yeah, it's a personal decision. But I'm talking about the wider mechanics of the economy. More people in more industries seem to be employed in emphemeral consultancy roles now - at the same time, managers are becoming younger and younger. If you're looking for a specific technological context, two friends of mine have spent their careers in web development: one is a senior manager - the other is a partner in a web design business. Neither, then, is a consultant. Still, they're not thirty/forty yet...

Mark: I'll take your point on board, but I'm not convinced. I suppose time will tell.

In regards to the article though, we definitely need to stop being so negative about IT and start being positive and talk about embracing the our constantly changing environment.

If I was of graduate age now and reading all the negativity I would be very worried. Maybe people should start writing articles about how interesting and exciting IT is. For those people who don't agree, simple answer, change your career, you were obviously never cut out for IT and it's fast pace of change. The IT sector doesn't need people like that, they need people who can help it progress not hold it back.

I’m willing to be convinced that the drive for youth is to an extent becoming an industry wide phenomenon, and I don’t suggest this is necessarily a bad thing. But it would be an injustice to be anything but honest with younger people should they be left under some illusion about what the global marketplace might mean for them later on. The market can adapt and they choose their vocation wisely; but for sure we can’t become a nation of IT consultants.

John: It’s a little harsh to correlate age with an unwillingness to learn. Indeed it takes decades to reach the top of your game in IT. For my part I took a masters degree in IT during a recent quiet spell. This included a dissertation that stretches the limits of current technology, while simultaneously writing a CAD/CAM system for a local company. My roles usually have nothing to do with computer graphics, to give you an idea of the breath of what experience can provide. If I thought anything but a minority of people could do what I do, I would (and in retrospect should) have given up IT years ago.

Stephen: Actually I wasn't correlating age with an unwillingness to learn. I agree that would be very harsh and probably very inaccurate. I was actually saying in my short experience so far, I've come across a lot of IT workers unwilling to learn, no matter their age. For example I know web developers still insisting on working in Classic ASP and having no inclination to learn .Net. Likewise I know other web developers who have no idea what is going on in terms of web standards etc all which directly affect their industry.

In regards to your comment about reaching the top of your game, I'm not convinced anyone can ever reach the top due to technologies changing and advancing so quickly. The minute you think you're on top, something new and better will be out and you need to learn that.

I believe to be good in IT you have to be flexible and willing to change with your environment.

I quote - "Specialization Is For Insects (Not Web Developers)"

John: When I say at the top of your game I mean relative to ones peers rather than relative to some absolute level. Admittedly this is a moving target since the role of the IT person is also changing, with perhaps more emphasis being placed on knowledge and use of a particular product or version of a product rather than skills in making something from more fundamental principles. Here solid experience may count for less, perhaps accompanied with a shift from academic to vocational qualifications (what’s best a Microsoft certificate or a degree?), though I might add that talk of the demise of the programmer and more fundamental skills has been going on since before I started in IT.

As regards specialisation I tend to agree; being a specialist pretty much guarantees a short career in todays IT market - even though it also appears to be what the market wants. Changing with your environment isn’t necessarily an optional process though, to the extent of requiring a career change, but now we’ve gone full circle.

Stephen: I completely agree, fundamentals are incredibly important. For a development point of view I've always believed that as long as you've got a good base of knowledge to start with you should be able to learn a new language fairly quickly. Certainly from a personal point of view that's always been my experience.

In terms of knowledge of products and versions of products you are right, this is exactly what companies are looking for, but this shouldn't make IT workers obsolete when a new product of product version comes out, they just need to be able to change with the times.

In regards to being Microsoft Certified, I've personally never bothered with it. All it shows is that someone is capable of developing something using a given Microsoft platform and in my experience a certified developer doesn't necessarily a good developer. A good developer is someone with good knowledge of the fundamentals and it able to apply that knowledge where ever they need to.

In regards to the IT market wanting specialists I agree, however this doesn't mean the IT workers have to limit themselves to one technology.

John: We’re more or less agreed on how things should work, the problem is that this isn’t the way things do work. If you don’t have product vwx, version y.z on your CV, it will likely not find itself on an employer’s desk. [Some rather high percentage put it there anyway and blag it, but that’s another story]. And if you’re in your late 30’s or over, your CV might just as well be blank after stating your date of birth (or equivalent age giveaways). That’s the reality, for good or bad. When I entered IT the guru’s were the older guys, now it’s the younger ones. I wasn’t recently working for as a factory floor operative and a postman (aged 38) out of choice and there are few vocations that are more likely to end this way. Careers with a physical or interpersonal element (a few exist even in IT) are where today’s graduates should be heading if they really want to risk it. Like Robert I also warn people youngsters off IT. My nephew was a bit of a wiz at IT (in part because I started him off at a very early age), but has since moved into networking, which requires a physical presence.

Stephen: Like I said in my first post, I'm in my late 20s and maybe I'm still a little naive.

In regards to product vwx, version y.z, is there any reason why you don't have those items on your CV? I understand that maybe your commercial experience is mainly in something else, but is there any reason why you can't move over?

Maybe working as a web developer is slightly different as I am able to moonlight a little, and I deliberately use different technologies from those I use at work, to keep a broad spectrum of skills. I do also spend a fair amount of time each week researching new things, just to not fall behind.

John: We could philosophise about reasons behind individual cases, but as Robert said, and I agree, the bottom line is that ageism is rife in IT.

In my particular case I worked on a CAD/CAM system while I did a Masters, and I did a Masters when the contract market went quiet. While a CAD/CAM system might rank amongst the most intellectually demanding things one might tackle in an IT career, it also lacks the usual buzzwords to get me into the jobs market. What one did last in IT counts for an awful lot, and in the intervening times an in-demand-product xyz can notch up a version or two. But age is the real killer on a CV.

Young people, is this intended to be ageist? What is so special about young people other than the fact they are mostly arrogant and/or ignorant? I am a mature graduate who has consistently achieved considerably higher marks than most of the yound students at my local university. I have been trying to get a job in IT for the last 5 years, purely because I like what I have learned and would like to put it to use. At 48, I haven't got a hope in hell. It's nothing to do with skills, it's all to do with wages.

Fewer than three in 10 (28 per cent) of the UK’s IT graduates enter technology occupations it says above, that's because organisations are too myopic to see the big picture. If you don't take people on a train them, is there any wonder that there is a (supposedly) skills shortage?
Or is it a ploy to bring in overseas developers and pay them minimum wage?

Chris: I'm slightly confused at your point regarding wages. Are you saying companies won't pay you enough to make it worth your while applying for jobs? If so are your wages expectations too high?

"Or is it a ploy to bring in overseas developers and pay them minimum wage?" - In my experience the overseas developers applying for roles at my company want at least the same level of wages. Have you got experience otherwise?

"What is so special about young people other than the fact they are mostly arrogant and/or ignorant?" - Isn't that an ageist statement in itself?

Chris: I'm not suggesting attracting young people at the expense of more mature workers. One group of workers is not mutually exclusive of the other. What I'm stating is that if more young people do not join IT, the industry will become stagnant.

John: I totally agree, by the way. Stereotyping is a dangerous game...

Mark: If the IT industry wanted more fresh young IT graduates, would supply not quickly follow demand? And the market adapt faster still to fill a demand for young non-graduates? I fail to see the concern, which if anything seems misplaced.

The likeliest interpretation of the statistics IMO is that fresh graduates are being edged out of an oversupplied IT market, while the less likely interpretation is that graduates are opting out of IT careers to pursue more lucrative or less boring careers outside IT, of their own accord. A-level, students, etc, would see what’s in store and figures reflect there also, just as they do in boom times. Perhaps we should be sure about why graduates are turning or being turned away from IT before talk of prognosis and cure. The statistics might be interpreted as symptoms of recovery rather than illness, in terms of a correction of oversupply. Isn’t that more likely? I think inexperienced IT graduates are having a hard time finding IT work (in common with experienced ones), with a lesser percentage finding greener pastures or seeing the writing on the wall in IT. If IT graduates are being pushed out rather than jumping out, attracting inexperienced workers artificially in an already oversupplied market, would surely be at the expense of experienced workers, which obviously has its own consequences, some of which we seem to be witnessing now. Isn’t that something we should be more concerned about?

Stephen: Over-supplied IT market? All the statistics point to an IT skills gap. The facts suggest UK plc needs people with the right technical skills, not a tit-for-tat replacement. I guess the question is: do you believe a skills gap would take on retrained and correctly skilled mature workers?

Mark: On the IT skills gap: I don’t consider that a lack of experience with a particular flavour of a product (or version of a product) constitutes a significant gap in ones skills, though some do. Middlemen (agents) certainly select on buzzwords, while employers are probably more pragmatic. In any case since industry for the most part appears to want industry gained skills, so it makes little sense for industry to complain about a shortage of skills that they provide and select upon.

The skills shortage has always been a myth that few believe; skills are so abundant that industry cannot be bothered to train, even in their own products, academic or vocational training dismissed, and age discrimination rampant.

On an over-supplied market: The statistics referred to in the original article could just as well be indicative of graduates not finding IT work as that of graduates choosing to find employment elsewhere, as suggested by the article. My point was that the percentages provided there were not enough on their own to support either view, they are just numbers. I might add that on the letters page of this weeks Computing a college IT lecturer tells us that his students find it impossible to secure IT jobs.

On retraining mature workers: I was working on the assumption that a mature worker would be as up-to-date with modern methods and technology as a younger worker, and as (or more) able. Industry should select the most capable candidate of course and neither should expect preferential treatment. Again the fact that mature experienced IT professionals are unable to find work points to over-supply in the market.

You have to laugh at all this or you'll probably start crying, I know I would! I graduated with a first in CS about 3 years ago now and have been working as a 'junior' developer for the last 2. I don't earn exceptionally well and training or advancement is generally the last thing on the company's mind when the next big problem has to be fixed NOW, yet I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones just to have a job related to my degree!

Many of the friends I graduated with are now in unrelated professions due to the total lack of willing employers prepared to take on and train a rookie, and yet here are the very companies moaning on about a skills gap, its crazy!

Its frankly just fantasy to suggest volunteer work to a newly graduated CS student (letters page, computing, 14 june) with a massive loan to pay off, overdrafts up to the ears and rent/council tax/bills to pay on a monthly basis so please don't patronize us with that little gem. Something is seriously wrong when a supposedly under supplied industry wont take on new graduates and take a roll in their career development, frankly its a self perpetuating cycle that is going to see the death of decent IT in this country and these companies will have no one to blame but themselves.

As a current undergraduate in his placement year. When leaving my final year in 2008 I will have a combination of a years experience in support, a few ms certs and a degree. However I.T. seems a very risky career!! Are there actually any jobs? To me it seems the only route into networking/support etc is going to be through help desk, paying your dues and working your way up that way. But even help desk jobs...

There should be more willingness for companies to work with Universities/schools for preparing students with necessary practical and business skills.

More 'apprenticeship' schemes would be ideal for students and future I.T. professionals. Spread out over a few years an apprentice will gain certificates, experience for a small wage, which will no doubt return well for the employer. Fresh ideas, a trained person for the future. The future of I.T. for us graduates is a scary place!

This is a very nice post, and I want to see how others react to this.

very intresting reading, its really up to the person to keep pestering management to train them, i have been doing that for too long and because of the very low wages my company offer i am beginning to be working alongside younger and younger people , if yoou are young you have a chance as long as you are prepared to switch learning new things in your private time , i havedecided to change careers as i feel more and more like a hampster running around a wheel all the time with management constantly trying to get more and more blood out of you , pay rise last year was 3 percent LOL says it all really

Chris - Thanks for your comments. You raise some interesting points, though I fear you might find that low pay and an inexperiened workforce is an industry - rather than a sector - wide phenomenon.

Many companies appear keen to do two things: spend as little as they can on human resources; spend as little they can on training. The result? More low-paid and inexperienced managers running departments. And as I said, it's not just a problem in the technology sector. Good luck, mate.

This hulabaloo about IT skill shortage is a bad omen. It gets loudest just before the recession, and the next big wave of layoffs and offshoring.

The infamous ITAA's PR campaign about critical shortage of programers just before 2000 is probably the best example of this phenomenon. Since then, number of programming jobs in the USA shrunk for 250000, if my memory serves me right.

Yeah, mataj. No smoke without fire, might be a suitable analogy.

At Computing, we are always writing about IT skills and professionalism in the technology industry. But the stories do seem to have more of a job pressure bent at the moment: wage levels; demand and supply; outsourcing and offshoring...

Its stupid to say that you become obsolete with time. Its a usual thing in any industry that you have to update yourself with ever changing trends in the market. If a person is making chips, it doesn't means that he always busy in making the same chip model. Obviously the company updates its technology with time and arrange its workers to get familiar with that technology.

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Martha - But doesn't having to update your expertise mean that you are becoming obsolete...?